Clarksville: A Freedmen's Community

Maggie May. She was uh…. She taught what was known as a pay school, where we take soap boxes and some gold and put it …

This is an interview with Mr. Ben May and some of his friends who are in for the interview. Mr. Seymour Washington, Mrs. Pauline Carrington Bartlett, Mrs. Katherine Earl Bedford and Mrs. Lenore Coleman May. The date is February 14, 1967. Mr. May, I believe this area out here is generally known as Clarksville. How did it get its name?

Well, it got its original name from Charlie Clark. He was a free man, and uh, he came out and bought two acres from Shelley Esty with the idea of colored- having a colored settlement in this part of town. And my people were one of the first purchasers, and we bought two lots adjoining him. And that was in the year of 1884, the year in which I was born. And uh, the mayor, originally, Elias Mayes, was … in the House of Representatives in two terms. He came in one term that I couldn't represent because it was uh, before my time. But his last term was in 1905 that I can remember. I was old enough to remember. Then...

He was a representative from Travis County.

In the house…

Yes ma’am, from Bradish County. Bradish County.

Well, wasn't he also a representative from Travis County at one time?

No.

Oh, I understood you say, Travis, yeah I misunderstood?

Yeah, we have made a mistake.

Well, that's alright. I probably misunderstood you. Uh, [inaudible].

Since we began this tape, another guest has come in, Mrs. Mary Stevenson Freeman, so she will also be in on the discussion. Now then, backing up to Clarksville, you told us how it got its name, Mr. May. What is the extent of the Clarksville area?

Well, it extends from West Lynn to the Missouri Pacific Railroad and beyond that it did at one time. Then, between the streets, say, 10th Street and Waterston Avenue.

Waterston?

Yes, ma'am.

Avenue.

And West Lynn.

And West Lynn...

Starts at West Lynn and goes to the Missouri Pacific. And beyond that was known as Clarksville, but then there'll be resettlers that built over there now, white people having built there. And the northern boundary is Waterston, where the Pease’s rock fence went down all the way to the dam, didn't it? And then uh, West 10th Street has gone as far as Missouri Pacific.

Uh huh. Then, he did own a part of Clarksville, you think?

Yes, that was, that was [inaudible] this side. We bought our [inaudible] but we bought was for [inaudible], but they was on the other side of the railroad.

That’s what I was trying to [inaudible]

They was on the other side of the railroad when we bought, that’s where …

That extended many Freeman []inaudible] to the Colley place.

Yes.

Did it not?

Yes.

On into the dam.

Oh, come on to the river. Come on. That was the colley to my mother in law, my sons, my husband, parents, sister, and they own the Colley and the Freeman.

And how do you spell colley? What is that name?

Colley? Colley.

C O L, L, E, Y or C, O L, L, I, E.

[]inaudible] regular []inaudible].

Colley. C-O-L-L-E-Y

That’s close enough.

She has a son now that is the principal of the school over there and his name is Colley Stewart []inaudible].

Oh, I see. What school is he principal of?

He is the principal of Rosewood and Oak Ridge.

Both schools... [inaudible]

Not that I know. That deflated. But, I...

Now that's her son? Ms. Freeman?

That's her husband.

Uh huh… Uh is this area to be included in urban renewal project?

Well, you... Ma'am. You don't think... Well, I don't... Well, it will not, perhaps be the urban renewal, but we have been notified by the city that in a court of time, we will have to vacate where we are now because there's going to be a boulevard the extension of 15th Street. Good of the reserve secretary. That's everything between 11th and 10th street.

Now, that will not be in the immediate future, though, will it?

No, no.

That's sometime in the year.

Master Planning.

In the planning, yes. Master Planning, uh huh.

May I ask why you all decided to come out here to live, to develop a community of… of uh, Negros here?

Well, I didn't decide to come. I came out here in my infancy. They brought me.

Well, I know, though, but why did they in the beginning? I mean...

It was Charlie Clark's idea when he bought the two acres to have a current community. Call it Clarksville.

They chose this part of town in Texas through East Austin.

[Inaudible]

Talk a little bit louder.

When I came out here, I located across the railroad. When my son was five years old, I bought the corner on West End. It was over there. Who was it? Who was over there?

[Name that is inaudible] No, Shelley.

No, it's definitely not. because I asked for two lots on Shelley down on Pearl Street, but the, he had decided…

Headmakers.

Headmakers, owned that, the older little flock on West Lynn to 12th, and they come on around where Miss Terry is. Bigger their circle. If you remember. I don’t… Do you remember?

Yeah.

The headmaker owned from West Lynn. I got the home, a lot of faith where they live. And my son was five years old then, and he's about 66 now.

How old are you now? Is that a secret?

(Laughing) oh, no, it's not no secret code. I've got the fifth generation.

Oh, my! How old are you?

I'm 86.

86

Yes ma’am. It's my birthday.

You will be when your next birthday comes.

Yes.

When is that?

In March?

In March? Well, that's coming up pretty soon isn't it?

When I'm almost to my son's with his three grandmothers over there. One mother with three children.

Oh, my.

I have 52... Well, I think the little boy died, but I think 52 of great, great, great grandchildren.

Oh my! Great, great, great!

Yeah.

Well, I'd say that's coming along fine!

And I, So I was saying, I don't want to say to be young, but I told my daughter in uh, in Dallas. Don't introduce me to your grandmother. Introduce me to your father's grandmother! [laughing]... tell that I was a little older than her.

Mr. May, how old are you?

I’m 80. I'm 84. Not 84, 83.

You're 83.

In January.

In January. Well, you two are the oldest of this group then. How old are you, Mr. Washington?

Well, I'll be 71 July the 12th.

Oh, you're just a boy.

I was born in 1896, July the 12th.

How does it happen that Clarksville has been able to maintain itself as a colored area? Mr. May?

Well, at first there was a church established out here and a few families moved out here, known as the Sweet Home Baptist Church. And it kind of gave the people an inspiration, and some had a wash of that. As time grew on, why more people moved out here. So on.

Well, was it convenient at that time? Did you recognize it as being chosen as a place convenient to your work?

It was close to town.

Uh huh. Close to town? Yes. Mr. Washington, what is your idea about that? How does this happen? That it's maintained itself out here?

Well, uh, this has always been a very peaceful community, and uh, we have always gotten along with the white people that was associated close to. And they seemed to like that behavior in us, and therefore they were perfectly satisfied with us old Settlers and young ones that lived here, and when they needed help, they just come just a few steps after they started the building in the infield, and they just come a few steps. And lot of the encouragement was given by Mrs. Pease, Governor Pease’s daughter, because I remember when I was a smaller boy, she used to have Christmas trees up there and invite all the colored children up there. [interviewees crosstalking]

Mr. Murray Graham. He was the son of Mr. Walter Graham, and uh, he was always interested in this community, also Mr. [Name that is inaudible] Graham and Mrs. Julie Pease, the daughter of Governor Pease, and I even chauffeured for her when I was in high school [inaudible], two horses. One called Mason and one called Dixie.

They were interested in us colored people, and they didn't see no point in shoving or moving us or, or posting us. Now one of the men that was most interested in moving this community and pushing it on the east side, was Mayor Tom Miller. But...

When was that?

That was back in back in, uh, about 30-7, 30, 28, or 29 back in there.

It’s early time.

In the early times he really, he said, all of the colored people. And he even, I knew him too. He even asked me, Seymour, why do y'all want to live out there where those white people is? I said, we was living out there, and the white people built where we are. We didn't… [interview crosstalk] …that's right. So that that was all the pro and con for a long time. But uh, I don't think nobody's very interested in that now, unless it's some progressive point come, like Mr. May said about a highway coming here, otherwise, I think the white people is perfectly satisfied and content with us to live here.

Well, is this still a rather quiet, peaceful neighborhood?

Just as quiet and peaceful as it can be.

That's fine. That's a very good recommendation for it. Do you have anything to add to that?

Well uh, I don't think Mr. May has finished. He, he finished about the church, but he didn't tell anything about the school. The school and the church come and combine, and that's what [inaudible]. His mother is the one that taught the first school out here.

What was her name?

And one of her people is still there.

Who is it?

Her name is [inaudible]

Uh, Blanch? [interviewee' crostalk]

And where does she live? Where does…

Yeah. She lives on the east side.

On the east side?

Yea, she has no legs. Both of her legs have been cut off.

You know what street she lives on? I'd like to get in touch with her.

We tried to have her here, but she couldn't come.

Well, I didn’t…

Well, do you know what? Did you say 16th Street?

I’ll find her number for you.

Oh why that will be fine, because I'd like to get in touch with her.

Mrs. May has the first kindergarten, kindergarten, now they call it. And then I had the last kindergarten.

I just closed it out.

You have?

Yeah, She kind of reminded me of my mother. She has, you know, ideas, humanity, you know? Trying to do something for the people.

Well, that’s a nice sign and spirit.

[Inaudible, speaking about her character] She felt she would always try to do some [inaudible] (laughing)

Well, that's [inaudible].

13 years I had taught.

13 years. And how many years did your mother teach?

Well, I don't remember. I know when this is a part of it, we're speaking of Blanche. She went to her and she was a pretty good-sized girl, and I wasn't six years old because I started to school up at the church when I was six years old.

[inaudible] school up, you know, somebody else didn't……somebody else didn’t, higher education, [inaudible], it’s still brewing,[inaudible] [interviewers crosstalk] …what’s headed down there from scratch, as soon as it brought up from scratch, another fellow [inaudible] and it went on. [inaudible interviewee crosstalk]

Yeah. [inaudible]. When was that? That your mother had?

Well, I was six years old. I mean, five or six years old. Well, I went to… they started school up in the church then, and I went to school, and it was before I had started school up in the church.

That's the Sweet Home Baptist Church. Is that the one?

Yes, ma’am.

They used it for church and school?

Yes ma’am.

And that's where you had the, what you call it? A pay school?

Pay school [inaudible] we had in the house over there. [crosstalking] And we still have a picture of that house.

Do you have a picture of that house?

Yes, ma’am. [Inaudible explaining picture and laughing]

We sure would love a copy. We'd love to copy it!

Has Clarksville increased in population in recent years? Has it grown?

It has. It has grown in population because there are a lot… There are rent houses out here when it used to be, everybody lived in, their own house. But there's been so many people came to Clarksville to live, until they developed rent house and such as that.

But it hasn't increased in area?

No, it has not increased in area.

Still stay [inaudible] family. Do you have any idea how many families live out here in Clarksville now?

Let's see. You know how many? [inaudible] 150 [inaudible]

About 150?

150

Somewhere, 150 and 200 families? Uh huh, oh, that's interesting to know.

She is more familiar with that because she is uh, she is, she has the King Kids Funeral Home [inaudible] out here. She collects… She knows everybody out here, cause she been in different kind of businesses. She operated, addressing parlor of that for 25 years. Before that, she went to nursing school when the nurses [Inaudible].

Well, she's been a busy lady! (laughter)[inaudible] Yeah, so back up, back up and tell us again, you would like to say what?

Well, we like it out here. We like to live out here, because it's peaceful. We don't have a whole lot of fighting and killing and robbing out here, and we can go off and we can leave things in the yard. Nobody bothers them. We leave things on our porch, and nobody we come back and find them just like we left them. And I do laundry for white people, and they come back when I'm not at home, and they leave they laundry on my front porch, and if I come home 10 o'clock at night, that laundry sits there on my front porch. [Interviewer crosstalks]. And this is just such a quiet community, and we would hate to be pushed out of this community. We would hate it very much because we're living in peace. Yes.

Now let me ask this question. In East Austin, there are so many areas where there is deep poverty. Recently, I took a tour of East Austin for a church group, hoping that we can do something to help people who want to help themselves. Do you have any high incidence of real poverty out here in Clarksville?

No ma’am. Not that I know of. And if anything happens to anybody out here, they and me, for anybody out here, we help them. We don't wait to ask anybody to help us.

You have a community spirit then here.

We have a community club here in this place.

You do?

Yes, ma'am, and uh, and other than the club, if anybody's in need, and the people's neighbors finding out, they help us, and that's how they turn it in. They'll help them. We don't sit down and let people in this neighborhood suffer if we know.

Well, that's a very fine thing to say about your neighborhood.

Now, I wasn’t in on this conversation.

Yes, you are! I’ve got your name down as one of the talkers, so you talk away.

In dealing with the children and the children's parents, I would say that there is poverty.

There is poverty.

Yes, it is, because some of the uh, children that I had that they have to have families as a high as 11 children. And uh, the mother has to keep some of the children out, like today, and then the next day, let the other child go to school. And uh, of course, they need, need so much. And then there are lots of them out here on the welfare, and so I say, we call that poverty.

You have some poverty? Do you have any of them who are in these daycare centers, any of the children out here?

Yes, I did. I had to close it on that account because I was running the school on my own,

Yes.

And, I just couldn't keep up. And, so, I had to close the school. I called the parents who wasn't able to uh, meet the need.

But they- some of them do go to the daycare centers from out here?

There are some, I think six, daycare centers for colored children now that the government supports.

Yes, and I was one of the licensed daycare centers. But I couldn't keep it up. The parents wasn't able to support me, And, of course, I had to go to work.

Mmm, hmm, mmm, hmm. So, then, you do feel that there are scattered instances of poverty out here in this area?

No, that scattered [inaudible].

It’s what?

It’s a city problem.

There's plenty of poverty here. That- That's true. That's true in all parts of town. I'm sure that there are [inaudible], uh huh, and it does need attention.

That's right. And I am willing, and would have gone if I could have gone further, but I just couldn't go further because of finance. For the child, for the sake of a child, I am willing to sacrifice and help them.

But, you still have to consider an income for yourself, don't you Mrs. May? That's fine.

Well, the statement that she made in regards to poverty, in contrary to what Mrs. Carrington said, she had a reference to personal and such as that.

Personal needs.

Yes, and things like that community, spirit, and things.

She wasn't thinking in terms of being just poor.

Yes, ma'am.

Well, I can understand that difference. There is a distinction a lot. How far can you remember in the development of this area? Mrs. Freeman?

It was the store out here when I first [inaudible] when I remember. Mr. Borough bought [inaudible].

Who did?

Borough, bought that corner over there when uh, I first came around… [interviewees crosstalk] on 10th and West Lynn. And you see, 10th and West Lynn all been built up since then.

Then uh, I remember when I come up here, there wasn't anybody. There was one or two houses up there on Shelley. And then… when I moved up here, I wanted to buy over on Shelley, but they didn't have, they didn't have any house out there. And as we come across the railroad, then I wanted to buy all that. I sent my husband to see Mr. Shelley if we couldn't get two lots of that, he said, “No, the mother and daddy had paid” but they had it in the courthouse to not to sell to the colored.

That's right, restricted, I've been waiting for you to bring that out.

On this side of West Lynn was restricted for color only, and on the other side was restricted to white.

Cause I wanted two lots on 12, I've been set up there on 12th [inaudible] had my good money when they done give it.

Have you [inaudible] that property, that you wanted to buy Shelley.

Shelley. Yeah, they all used to own all of some 12, come on down. I don't know how far it run, but it runs up to [inaudible name], Grim, and then they joined. But Grim and Shelley didn't get along, so they didn't sell to each other.

Uh huh, so they wouldn't either one give in to them.

They wouldn’t give in to each other.

Is that the Shelley for whom Shelley Street was named?

Uh, Mr. Washington, you haven't said anything lately. What are some of the things you remember about early Austin now?

Oh, I remember when Sixth Street was called Pecan Street, and it was only a dirt road. It didn't have any pavement.

And I remember the front saloon that stood where the American National Bank once stood on the corner of Sixth and Congress, not where it is now, but over where the uh, [[inaudible location], and then on the side where the white drugstore is, was Mr. Rose's saddle shop. He had a big white artificial all standing up, hooked to a buggy.

And uh, I remember when it was saloons, every which way you look busy, and uh, boys wasn't allowed to go in.

Were you a boy?

I was a boy.

And you weren't allowed to go.

I wasn't allowed to go in. I could follow my daddy to the door, but I wouldn't. He wouldn't let me go in with him. And I, then I remember uh, when uh, [inaudible]

Well, the streetcars, I, I can remember. They were trolley cars, you know. They, the mule and horse, just disappear before I was large enough to say anything, know anything. But I do distinctly remember the shops quite good, because everywhere you seen a horseshoeing shop or a blacksmith shop, you seen a little beer saloon right back there, (laughter), they always had a beer saloon after the horseshoes and the blacksmith to drink their beer. [There was] one always there.

Were you a blacksmith?

I was blacksmith and horseshoe. I put on rubber ties on buggies and I put rubber on horses' feet, rubber shoes on their feet, the big American Expressway horses, Railway Express, Wells Fargo Express horses…

Who were some of the people that you recall shoeing horses for?

Oh, Governor Harvey, Governor Ferguson, and uh, I have even [inaudible] some horses for Governor Ferguson's grandson, great grandson, Mr. George [inaudible name]. Mr. George [inaudible name] was married to Mrs. Ferguson's daughter and Mr. Ferguson. And then his… he has a son, and his son has three boys, and I've [inaudible] horses for all of them, and I [inaudible] horses for Governor Ferguson on his farm. He had a dairy farm during his lifetime. And I [inaudible] horses for Captain Dick Naylor, the Rangers. I even [inaudible] horses for Senator Grady Hazelwood up at Camp Mabry. [inaudible] camp Mabry horses for Captain Dick Naylor Ranger, and also General Sturgeon Ranger.

Is there a horseshoe- I mean- Is there a blacksmith shop in town now?

No ma'am, there are machine shops mostly.

Mostly machines.

How long ago since you had your blacksmith shop?

Oh, I haven't had a blacksmith shop now. In fact, I never did run a blacksmith shop of my own. Always work for somebody. I worked for Mr. TC Thompson back in ‘25. I worked for Mr. Pete Thompson. I worked for Mr. Swan Martin, which had a shop up on Bradleys and Eighth Street. And he had a son that was a salesman down here to Cadillac motor people. His name was Oscar Martin. He and I shot horses together. We along the same age, and then Mr. Pete Thompson he has one boy left, Mr. Will Thompson, and uh, he's still living, I think, last I heard of him. But we used to put rubber ties on… on buggies, and then we'd shoe these horses with rubber shoes. And, you know, there's a reason for everything. And the reason they [inaudible] these big Wells Fargo Express horses with rubber pads was because they were so heavy, and they jog, jog, jog all day long, and they just burn out and give out on the street, and their feet would just get hot. And they had a cushion for them to cushion on.

They didn't use the steel shoes then?

No, not on those big horses. This shoe was a combination of part steel and part rubber. It was a bar, rubber bar we call.

I remember seeing them like that. I had forgotten…

Then uh, then I also [inaudible] performing horses for the uh, [inaudible name] circus, uh Mr. [inaudible name] had a charge of that, he was an [inaudible], and I [inaudible] horses for him, about two or three seasons, when he come through.

And he hasn't told us anything about told the river rising and the experience.

Well, (laughter) that’s, that's, that's what I was speaking about.

Well, you didn't put it onto this little critter, though.

Well, anyway, when I came across Montopolis Bridge.

Back up and tell us what you were doing.

I was hauling truck. Driving, driving truck refused, uh the incinerator, the trash it would bite after it was hauled to the incinerator, and uh, I had my route was down east First Street, to Montopolis bridge and across Montopolis Bridge down the Lockhart highway, to a big hole that belonged to the state where I dumped this [inaudible]. And, in the course of time that I was hauling there, this river came up, and it was so high. When I went across it, I could feel a vibration.

About when was that?

36. 1936. I don't remember the exact date. And uh, when I came back to it, I stopped and checked it, and I seen it was still rising a little. That was the old bridge before they built a new one, and I just jumped on it with the truck, and come on, jumped across just as fast as I could, and I could feel the vibration as I was moving, but I was moving pretty briefly.

I bet you were, too.

And uh…

You didn’t stop in the middle?

No ma’am. Couldn’t stop to watch the river. And uhm… [interviewees crosstalk] …then, here's the thing I would like for you to know, too. It is Sergeant Stromquest that had charge of guarding people that was coming down Lavaca Street to see the water. And water was up at least a foot and a half in front of the [inaudible name] lumber yard on Second Street, and they had me there with a rope tied to this MAC, same MAC truck. And people that had to go in there and get the thing I’d let them by, but those that didn't, I'd back, tighten up, drive up and tighten that rope, and they couldn't get by, and this water kept rising. So, Sergeant Stromquest got on the side of the rope loose. And that's one time in my life where I had orders from a police officer to run into other folk. [inaudible] run into him. That is his orders. He says, “Hit him Seymour. Knock him back Seymour. Hit him Seymour,” and I was just playing football with the traffic, and some people had frowned at me, “What's the matter with him? What's the matter with him?” And he said, “Go back. Go back. It's too much water down there.” He said, “Hit him. Seymour hit him. Keep a hit,” and I used this Big Mac truck, and bumped into people I was close to, very careful not to hit them too extra hard, but just enough to let them know they shouldn't come any further. And, and, I really done that. I don't know another incident where a police officer would give…

Told y'all just to run into people.

Run into people.

Now wait a minute ago, when you were talking about that Montopolis bridge, you said you got across it while it was [inaudible]. You haven't told the end of that story. Tell it to, again.

Well, I come on back to the uh, [inaudible name] headquarters, which was at San Antonio and First Street, and Mr. Powell was superintendent down there of the sanitary division. And I told him about this bridge swaying with me, and he kind of laughed it off. He said, “I think you just seen so much water it frightened you.” I told him, “No, the bridge was absolutely coming out of its base.” And while I was talking to him, somebody had phoned City Hall and told him that Montopolis bridge had gone out. And he said, he said, “You were right. Seymour.”

You hadn't dreamed it.

I hadn't dreamed it. It was right.